A COURSE IN
KETTLEBELLS
A REVEALING CONVERSATION
WITH SENIOR RKC & KETTLEBELL EXPERT,
FRANZ SNIDEMAN
Moderated by
Scott Iardella, RKC II
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A Course In Kettlebells
A Revealing Conversation With
Kettlebell Expert,
Franz Snideman
A candid, insightful chat between 2 guys passionate about Kettlebells.
With Scott Iardella, RKC II, CK-FMS and
Franz Snideman, Senior RKC, CK-FMS
Scott:
Hey, this is Scott. Today I have on the line with me Franz Snideman to
share with me his experiences about Kettlebell training, fat loss, and
performance enhancement. Franz and his wife are owners of Revolution
Fitness La Jolla in La Jolla, California.
Franz is a RKC team leader, which is a distinguished honor in the Russian
Kettlebell community. And I've talked about that previously on the podcast.
Franz is also a certified Kettlebell functional movement specialist, which is
a higher level certification as well. He is also the coauthor of the
"Revolution Kettlebell Fat Loss Program" book and DVD, as well as
other products.
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He's ‘chek two level certified.’ He's a certified NMT, which is a
neuromuscular therapist, and has been teaching clients since 2000, serving
thousands of people. I'm really fortunate to have Franz on the line today.
Franz, thanks so much for taking time out of your busy schedule and
joining me.
Franz Snideman:
Hey, it's my pleasure, Scott. Thank you for having me and for doing this
interview.
Scott:
Oh, definitely. Glad to have you here. So listen, that was kind of the
snapshot introduction and your certification and background. You know, I've
been dying to hear about your journey with Kettlebells and how you got
started. So can you tell us how you got started with Kettlebells?
Franz:
Yeah, sure. Back in 2002, I was a personal trainer at a local gym in La
Jolla. I'd always been plugged into what was going on in the fitness
industry. For the most part I've been pretty lucky in the sense that I've been
able to be attracted to some of the better and more progressive
methodologies.
I think I've always felt like I've been ahead of the curve and just naturally
run into the best information. It was by chance that my brother and a friend
of mine named Josh Henkin, who is also an RKC team leader.
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They had gotten into Kettlebells and they had called me and said, hey, you
really need to check out these things called Kettlebells. And I said,
awesome, I'm game!
At the time I was doing a lot of Swiss Ball and corrective exercise work,
more along the line of Paul Chek's stuff. So I definitely had a huge passion
for learning more.
A client of mine and I, we found out who the best Kettlebell guy was, and it
was Pavel Tsatsouline. I'm sure most people on this call know who that is.
And we hired him.
We went up to Santa Monica and we had a two-hour session with Pavel.
This was in the fall of '02. And I immediately said, man, this guy knows his
stuff. Not only is he incredibly intelligent, the guy is such a nice guy. I was
attracted to his character and his mode of operation, and the way he talked.
And he said, Franz, I have a Kettlebell certification that I started a year ago.
I think you'd be a good candidate. Why don't you come take it next year?
So in 2003 I signed up for April RKC. I got done with that after three days. I
was humbled. I figured out I didn't move very well. I had some back issues.
I knew then, Scott, I said, you know what, this is what I'm going to focus on.
It encompassed everything that I had been trying to do with my clients, and
really had been trying to do with my own body unsuccessfully.
For me that was the starting of a journey, and it was a transition where I
said, you know what? This is what I'm going to focus on.
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I'm not just going to dabble in Kettlebells, I'm going specialize in Kettlebells
and really learn as much as I can from Pavel. He's been the biggest mentor
for me personally. That's just opened up a whole other avenue with the
CKFMS and corrective exercise.
That was my initial introduction to Kettlebells. It's been, wow, it's 2011, I
guess eight years going on nine years. I feel like I'm still learning, Scott. I
don't have this figured out. I'm not even satisfied with any of my techniques.
I've got a lot of growth to do. [laughs]
Scott:
Well I hear you, and I totally relate. It was just a couple of years ago that I
discovered Kettlebells. I've kind of been on the fast track ever since. I've
been trying to become a master at it, but I'm still so far away.
That's the beauty of it, really. You'll be working on your skills, even the
fundamental skills, for the rest of your life, no matter how good you are or
how good maybe you think you are.
Again, like you mentioned that the RKC was such a humbling experience,
and it was the same way for me, too. So I can totally relate.
That's why Kettlebells is such a great way to train, and I'm going to ask you
a lot more about that. A couple of things you said and I'm just curious. You
mentioned that you had some back issues. Was that the time that you went
through the RKC training?
Franz:
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Actually, yeah. I actually had had a disc herniation at L4 and L5 probably
around that same time. So I went into the RKC with some preexisting back
conditions from some possible problems from a body surfing accident that I
had had as a kid.
So initially, as I got into Kettlebells, my back didn't get better. The reason it
didn't get better is because I was not a technician. I didn't really do the due
diligence. I didn't know enough on how to really get my body better.
Actually I suffered another disc herniation in '04, so '02 and '04. I thought I
was going to need surgery.
But it wasn't until I really started taking the way I moved and the habits that
I had developed as an athlete. It wasn't until I took a serious look, and I
was just brutally honest with myself. I said, you know what?
I'm just trying to get too strong too quickly. I'm very impatient. If I'm really
going to do anything with this, and if I'm really going to have any credibility
in my teaching, I've got to kind of figure out how to work on some of my
own issues. And I did.
I avoided surgery. I was able to successfully get my back really strong. It
was a process, but I can tell you that my back has been phenomenally
good. It was probably since about, I would say, 2006.
So I'm going on about almost five years now where my back has just
been... You know, knock on wood, but it has been so good. It was just
learning to move from my hips. And it was cleaning up a lot of the habitual
poor movement habits that I had developed. It wasn't anybody's fault. It just
was lack of knowledge and lack of discipline on my part.
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The RKC served not only as a system for me to start a business and have
a successful business, but it served as a launching pad for me to start the
journey of learning to move better.
You know, learning to kind of “unpeal” the layers, if you might, say of my
dysfunctions. In that I've been able to really get my body to do some things
that I thought I would never be able to do, and I'm still on that journey. I'm
on that journey, Scott.
It's been wonderful to see the confidence that I've been able to develop in
my own body because of the training. Also I'm able to really take this
information and teach it to others, so that I can influence them and help
them go on their own journeys. So, It's been positive in more ways than
one, let's put it that way.
Scott:
That's awesome, that's great to hear that your back is doing so
phenomenal, as you put it. I'm a former back patient myself. I actually did
have L4/L5 surgery many years ago, probably around 20 years ago.
But since discovering Kettlebells, I've really found that doing a good swing,
a good dead lift those are some of the key exercises, specifically the swing.
As you know, the muscular endurance that's involved in doing that exercise
in particular.
I've not had any back issues since doing Kettlebells at all. And you know
quite honestly I mean even through the years I really didn't have many
back issues because I felt like I learned to move better with my exercises.
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I was more in tune with just listening to my body. But I think that kettlebells
definitely take things to a new level, and a lot of which you talked about is
Kettlebells is essentially is learning to move better. They really teach you a
lot about your body and proper movement.
So the first question I wanted to ask you is, why are Kettlebells so different
compared to other training modalities so, I'm assuming that what you would
say with that is, with the movement advantage. Is that correct?
Franz:
Yeah, I mean, obviously there is different types of Kettlebell training so I
don't know if I want to lump sum Kettlebells into one category, because
there are different techniques.
You have the Girevoy sport, which is more of a Kettlebells sport, and the
specific body postures that you have to get into are unique to that sport.
Obviously with the RKC, they are substantially different.
You're not rounding your back, you're not rounding your shoulders. It's
more of what I call kind of a realistic everyday type of posture that you
would want to have, so I'm going to speak more as an authority, from the
hard style RKC principles which not a Girevoy sport.
If I can kind of put the Kettlebell training that we're talking about in that
domain, I don't have expertise in GS, I am familiar with it, but I can really
only speak from a position of experience and authority from within the
realm of the RKC, because that's the lens that I see things through.
That is the basis and the system of everything that I do, that doesn't mean I
don't use other tools, that doesn't mean I don't use other modalities.
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But the Kettlebell in that system. I would say the reason it's a unique tool;
one, it's the shape of the actual tool itself, it's a round you know cannonball
looking thing, it has an offset handle, the center of gravity being, extremely
low in the tool, it's hard to get that if you use a dumbbell or a barbell.
It's very awkward to swing a large dumbbell in between your legs. I don't
know if you've tried it, I have. [laughter]
Scott:
I have, it's not even close.
Franz:
It doesn't feel good, so obviously the cannonball there lends itself to being
able to swing it comfortably in your grip and because of that offset handle
and center of gravity just not being in the center... It’s almost like having a
live animal on your hand.
It requires your body automatically to do things on a reflex level that you
would not get with other tools. That's not to say that I don't like dumbbells.
I love dumbbells.
I think barbells are awesome but you can't swing a barbell between your
legs. You can't swing a dumbbell effectively through your legs.
Hands down, there is no comparison. If you're going to be doing this type of
work, Kettlebells is the way to go. You wouldn't know that unless you've
actually done a swing or you've actually had somebody take you through a
Kettlebell session.
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It's not something you can really have an accurate opinion on from the
outside.
When you hear people "Oh I've tried those..." I was just teaching a
Kettlebell class at a local yoga clothing store the other night called Lulu
Lemon. We had a pretty nice group and I was asking people "Hey, what
have you heard about Kettlebells?"
Some people said, "Oh, you lose fat, it's good for your hips," and one of the
older ladies said "Oh, it's bad for your knees, and bad for your back."
I said, "Well, I'm going to prove you wrong. It may be if you do it wrong. It's
never the fault of the tools, it's always the fault of the person using the
tools."
Kind of coming back, it is a very unique tool but people's opinions on it are
really just based on ignorance, if nobody has ever done it. I'm sure you've
seen that in your own work.
It's something you have to give an opinion on it once you've actually used it
because you have no clue if you haven't used it.
Scott:
Yep, absolutely. You gave a lot of information right there, a lot of good stuff.
I want to go back. I want to ask you about Hard Style Kettlebell training.
There are different styles, as you mentioned, and quite honestly my only
real exposure has been with the hard style approach.
I just absolutely love it, because as a former physical therapist I really
respect the knowledge of you guys. All the top level instructors and all your
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knowledge about anatomy and movement and physiology, it's just been
totally impressive. Ever since I started and took my first workshop down
here with Andrea DuCane.
I really don't know that much about the other styles. With the hard style in
particular, what is the main advantage of that particular style as you see it?
What's the main benefit?
Franz:
I think for the average person, Grandma Betty or the average person who
just wants to be stronger in their everyday life. Wants to be able to pick up
their grandkids, wants to be able to play some kind of a weekend sport or
tennis or throw a ball with their kid.
The advantage is that the hard style lends itself to kind of a multipurpose
athletic body. That's not to say that there's other methods that wouldn't get
you athletic.
But the hard style system, the way that we like to talk about it, basically the
hard style system in the RKC reverse engineers what the strongest and
most talented and gifted athletes in the world do.
So basically, we say OK this is your best power lifter. This is your best
Kettlebell lifter. This is your best gymnast. And you look at the top in each
sport there are certain biomechanical principles that transcend anyone's
sport.
At the end of the day the body is the body, movement is movement. It's just
the various definitions that we put on various types of sport.
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But, at the end of the day the average person needs strength. They need
power, they need flexibility. Most people want to be leaner. Most people
want to have a lot of mobility and move.
The Hard Style system it's so effective because it basically takes someone
with rather poor movement skills; maybe someone who is really weak. In a
relatively short period of time, it teaches you to harmoniously plug your
body together.
The analogy that I like to use is if you can think of a symphony or an
orchestra, you've got the conductor that is standing up. In order for really
wonderful music to be played so that the audience can enjoy this incredible
pleasure of just wonderful sound and music, the right instruments have to
turn on at the right time.
You have the tuba, the violin, various wind instruments, horns. If you don't
know how to structure that, you don't know how to get everything to turn on
at the right time, maybe the conductor points at the French horns but the
tube goes off. And what you end up having is noise.
And that's what typical fitness is. You just move with no rhyme or reason.
You move with no intention of how the body wants to move. And people
wind up with these noisy movement bodies.
Meaning that one. When they move it looks bad. Two. It feels bad on them;
their joints hurt, their muscles hurt. So movement becomes very laborious
and it becomes very painful.
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I would say the Hard Style principles they basically teach you how to play
music. They teach your body how to turn on automatically so that when you
go out and do stuff you don't have to think about it.
It just happens automatically. Now, that takes time, but it's practice. The
system is so amazing because it's based on principles. This is the way the
body works.
Anybody that applies the principles with discipline, intention, and patience
will get way better results than they would with the majority of other fitness
systems.
In fact , I would say with any fitness system out there. I have never seen
anything as effective as the RKC system. There's just nothing out there.
Scott:
I agree totally. That’s awesome, I've never quite heard it put like that but
that is really awesome.
Franz:
Let me say one more thing really quick.
Scott:
Yeah, sure.
Franz:
I think people might be confused what "Hard Style" means. Hard Style is
actually based on a karate based style of fighting. Of a kind of a
handtohand combat. And it's based more on power production.
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And let me tell you why I think this is more important. It's because at the
end of the day, the person that really wants to use their body well, use it
safely, but use it in a powerful fashion, they need to be able to produce
force.
They need to be able to use their bodies at will without getting injured,
without fear, without any kind of hesitation.
A Hard Style system, whether it be Martial Arts or whether it be Kettlebells,
is based on your body tapping into your muscles, tapping into movements,
and it's more of an aggressive style. Hard style is basically we're
emphasizing power production over power conservation.
You're not really trying to conserve power. It doesn't mean we're not into
efficiency, but it does mean that at the end of the day, we'd rather have
somebody be able to produce power safely, than to be able to have very
low levels of power but maybe, it would maybe be an analogy of doing like
a marathon.
A marathoner is not powerful. They're very endured, they have a lot of
endurance, but they don't produce a lot of force.
Scott:
Right, right.
Franz:
Most people aren't going to be running marathons. The majority of people,
they need the ability to produce power, and to generate tension, and to be
able to do things safely, whether it be lifting up a grandkid or whether it's
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picking up a Kettlebell or a 50 pound Arrowhead bottle that you put on your
cooler.
These are realistic loads that people are going to, need to be able to do.
The Hard Style RKC is a power based system to get people strong and to
get people powerful.
Scott:
Yeah. That’s awesome. How much time on average do you think it takes for
the typical individual to establish respectful movement? Quality movement?
Is it usually, maybe, a month or so in your experience? Is it a little bit
longer? Certainly, we talked about it takes a long time, years to master a
movement. But what's your experience with your clients in general for a
"swing," a "getup", those type of exercises.
Franz:
Well, I mean, it really depends on what the client is coming in with. I mean,
if they have very poor movement habits or they... Some of the people that
are the hardest to work with are people that have been involved with
competitive sports and are very athletic maybe in certain avenues, because
you're having to undo so many core movement patterns.
And often the person that has relatively no experience, in fact, I had a chef
come in here the other day a person, woman, who really never worked out
in her life, and she picked up stuff immediately. She had no prior movement
patterns in her brain that were competing, so it was actually easier to work
with her.
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I mean, I would say on average, probably three to four weeks you could
see substantial improvements in somebody who was dedicated and really
focusing on the details of the swinging and learning to hinge from the hip,
learning to keep their posture really tall.
But I always like to teach people that every, you should get better in some
way at every lesson. And rather than focusing on the workout, per se, on
breaking a sweat and getting your heart rate up, let's focus on teaching,
let's focus on learning.
Grey Cook and Bret Jones recently came out with a product on Indian
Clubs, which I think is called “Club Swinging Essentials.” But basically they
quote a very knowledgeable exercise historian named Dr. Ed Thomas.
He talks about what is called rational training, which is basically that when
you train the objective of your training should not be to get a workout or
break a sweat. [laughter]
That is what the original gyms in America were like. Some of these gyms
that came over in the 1800's from Germany and Europe, you didn't work
out. You went to work on skills. You went to work on learning. It was a
learning lesson, it wasn't a work out.
So for me, it's trying to get people to understand that, Yes, the byproduct of
learning and learning the skills is you actually do get a pretty good workout.
You are going to work your butt off.
You are going to work really hard, but that's not the goal. The goal is skill
acquisition so that you move better. Your body is more fluid and it moves
with grace.
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You don't hurt when you move. You actually enjoy movement. So I would
say that if you focus on what people's weaknesses are, really find the
limitations that are bothering them and really try to remove some of the
obstacles that are hindering them from moving.
They should get better immediately. There should be an improvement from
the first session, they might not look like Brett Jones, but they should be
better than they were when they walked in.
So, to answer your question, I would say that every session would be
somewhat better I mean obviously as they get more and more advanced
the improvements are going to be a little bit less.
But you can usually see the biggest improvements with people that are
totally new. So for a woman to swing an 18 pound Kettlebell might be really
hard.
In a month she might be swinging a 16 or a 22 bell so people can improve
really quickly if they follow the proper progression and they don't overdo it
in the beginning.
Scott:
Yeah, that's really good. Let me ask you, so, we have talked a lot about
how Kettlebells improve movement. This made me think of something.
So most clients are coming to you for fat loss, to look better or feel better.
How do they react when they start learning about Kettlebells and they kind
of discover that it is about improving their movement.
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But to them in their mind they just want to lose the extra 10 pounds, 20
pounds, maybe they are not concerned with moving better, per se. I'm just
curious how do your clients typically respond when you get into the level of
detail about improving movement.
I guess what you do is kind of translate that movement into the benefits that
they want.
Franz:
Well yeah, I mean, I try to meet people where they are at. I try not to give
them something that they are not ready for. If somebody doesn't really have
a big ambitions to move better, I tell everybody the benefits. And morally
and ethically I think I still have to sneak that in whether they want to or not.
But some people don't really care about the science behind it or the kind of
the reasoning behind it. They say that's great. I really just want to fit into my
jeans that I wore in college or high school.
That's really individual, because some people take to it immediately and
say this is great I had no idea. I had a different idea on what Kettlebells
were. You really opened my eyes to a whole new world.
I didn't know that exercising full body movements and working your body as
a whole was more advantageous than just isolating my body into tiny little
parts.
Most people respond to that because it's logical and when they do it, it
makes sense. They are like yeah you are right, I do get a better work out
when I do, you know, get ups and snatches and goblet squats and pull ups.
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Walking pushups and wow you're right I see the benefit in that. So,
depending on the person, I always emphasize teaching. I feel that that's
really what a trainer is, or a coach.
You are there to teach them. Yes, you are there for encouragement
definitely, accountability. Everybody needs some kind of accountability. I
have coaches in many different aspects of my life in many different areas.
You need a coach for many reasons. But when we are really working with
people to meet their esthetic goals, they are actually going to get there
faster and enjoy it long term if you really can tackle some of these problem
areas in their bodies.
I just try to sandwich them and say, listen, I am not separating. This
corrective work we are doing, this stretch we're doing or patterning drill we
are doing is actually all pushing you towards the goal of getting you to be
leaner or lose fat.
That's my approach is to teach people and educate them and say, hey this
is part of it. I'm not divorcing fat loss from this, it's all part of the package.
This is what's going to get you to do that. If you educate people enough
and your reasoning and ability to communicate that with people is strong
enough, people are going to get it.
Scott:
Yeah, I had a feeling you'd say that. I just wanted to kind of confirm it, too.
Because that's been my experience, as well. When people start with
Kettlebells they are not necessarily interested in moving better.
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Once a session or a couple of sessions, they really understand that it is
about better movement. I don't want to say they buy in to that concept, but
they understand that concept.
They understand that moving better will get them to their goals whatever
they are. It's very individual but most people do react positively to
improving their movement patterns.
I think that's pretty much what you said. What are the top things that people
need to consider when just starting out with Kettlebells?
Franz:
Well, I think the number one thing is getting some coaching. I see too many
people that come in, my wife and I are Dragon Door dealers, we're the only
Dragon Door dealers in San Diego and with the book that came out the
"The Four Hour Body" I'm getting a lot of...
Scott:
Oh yeah [laughter]
Franz:
It's the Tim Ferriss book that actually emphasizes the swing as the top
exercise for muscle building and fat loss, which is true.
I'm getting a lot of men that come in and they want to buy Kettlebells
because they see my sign in the window but they are reluctant to get
coaching. Well I'm just going to do it on my own.
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So I think the first thing to consider is, OK. If you are going to be swinging a
36 pound Kettlebell you might want to see if you've earned the right to do
that.
Franz:
Because yeah i mean you could really hurt yourself if you don't move well
or you have limitations that aren't going to allow you to swing a Kettlebell,
So I will emphasize to people, listen, I will show you this Kettlebell but I got
to tell him you should come in for a session or you know, I can refer you to
a coach if you don't live here. That could teach you, how to do, at least get
a session or two, get to learn the basics.
So, first and foremost, I think everything else is secondary. Everything is
secondary to coaching and teaching. If you're not going to learn, then I
really don't have any interest in working with somebody.
So that will be my advice to anybody who wants to get into Kettlebells, you
know, in the long run, you are going to end up spending more money on
therapy and massage and acupuncture and chiropractic and surgery.
Just invest in learning to move better and you won't need to do that. You
won't need to invest in that, because your body is actually going to get the
benefit from what the Kettlebell is designed to do.
So that's the first, is teaching and learning. They've got to learn from
somebody qualified on just how to move better and just get the basics, the
dead lift, the swing, the getup, even they can goblet squat, those three
movements right there, that'll keep them busy for a year, easily.
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Yeah, and then, number two, find the best Kettlebells that you have access
to, not everybody has access to Dragon Door or RKC Kettlebells, which I
think are the best Kettlebells on the market. I am very biased, I use a lot of
different Kettlebells,
I've had a lot of people give me Kettlebells from different companies and
I've tried a lot of Kettlebells. There is nothing else out there like it. Dragon
Door is one of the best. They have the best designs, the best moulds.
It fits the body, the hand, the grip, the finish. They don't chip, they don't
break. I would say, you know, try to get the best Kettlebell you can get and
if you can, I would get a Dragon Door Kettlebell. I mean in my opinion,
that's the Ferrari of Kettlebells.
So and then number three would be once you get your teaching and the
basics down, once you actually have a couple of sets of Kettlebells, then
the programming comes into place.
And the programming will come, that's more secondary, like I said, doesn't
really matter what program you do. If you don't have at least the basics
down. It just doesn't matter.
Well, you know, how many reps should I do, who cares. If you are not
moving well, I'd rather you not do anything. You know, don't do it. So, once
you've got the first two down, then, yeah, there's there are tons of programs
out there.
Again, you might agree with me, I think that's secondary to actually learning
to move better.
Scott:
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Yeah, now I think you hit it perfect, I think the first thing, it all starts with
good coaching. And I think, maybe, it was Dan John that said something
about the Kettlebell swing.
He said that the Kettlebell swing seems like the easiest exercise on paper
to do. But it is really one of the hardest exercises to learn how to do the
right way.
It was amazing for me because I've been training for years, you know, I've
been a gym rat for almost 30 years.
When I started with Kettlebells, it was six months before I went to a
workshop. So I was training by myself for six months thinking that I'm doing
a correct Kettlebell swing. A guy who has been training for long time.
I took the workshop with Andrea DuCane and found out that I was not
doing a Kettlebell swing the right way.
So it's that important. Most people that just pick up a Kettlebell without any
coaching baseline, they're probably not going to do it the right way.
So like you said, at least for a guy that comes into your fitness studio, at
least a session or a couple of sessions to get some really good coaching,
to get a baseline and then go from there.
Everyone is different. Some people are going to pick it up quicker, but the
last thing you want to do is injure yourself, get hurt.
You're not going to get the benefit at all. It's great that the popularity that
Tim Ferriss brought in his book "The Four Hour Body," but it's not as easy
as reading a book, even looking at a DVD.
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You owe it to yourself to go to a certified trainer, an RKC, an HKC, and
learn, spend a little bit of money for at least a baseline session, and get that
before you get going. That's just fantastic advice.
Let me ask you, so new clients that come to you. What are the usual
misconceptions people may have about training with Kettlebells? Male or
female.
Is there something in general that they're really apprehensive about, or are
they afraid of getting bulky or what?
Franz:
Again, it kind of depends on the person, on the client. I find typically, if I'm
going to generalize, the younger girls and younger women are a little more
open to doing different types of things.
That would be Kettlebells and ropes. The older female is a little more set in
her ways and probably has a little more misconceptions and myths. Not
quite as open. So they might take a little bit more convincing.
But obviously you havethere is the fear of getting big and getting bulky, and
I get a lot of women that do Pilates and say hey, I do Pilates and it helps
me build long lean sculpted muscles. I want long muscles.
And I say, well, that's nice. That's a birth gift you get from your parents if
you've got it.
[laughs]
It's not really up to you. Your muscles are your muscles. You're not going to
change the length of them, per se, unless you get longer bones. But yeah,
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there are a lot of misconceptions. I think also, just the fear of hurting
themselves.
People say wow, that looks really, really dangerous. Actually David Whitley
tells a funny story of a... For those who don't know David Whitely, he's a
master RKC in the RKC community. He tells the story of a guy coming into
his gym who's smoking a cigarette.
He looks in and says "Wow, those things look dangerous.". And the guy's
sitting there, [makes inhaling sound] , smoking the cigarette like "Wait a
second pal. What we're doing is dangerous, and you're sitting there puffing
on a..."
Scott:
[laughs] Right, right.
Franz:
And also I think a lot of people think that it's just for strength, as well. I had
a guy come in and said, oh, that's great. I know about weight training. What
do you guys do for cardiovascular work?
Well, you obviously haven't done a 5minute snatch test, or 500 swings in
10 minutes. We'll work your cardio."
Again, I think it always comes back to education. Regardless of where
people are, I immediately like to set people straight. Not in a rude way but,
"Hey, listen. Here's what you're thinking."
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If they're open to it I say, "Hey, this is why we use Kettlebell. This is why
you should use Kettlebell. Here's why it's not going to hurt your back.
Here's why it's not going to make you big and bulky.
I give you an example of looking at Adrianna. She is really tiny. She's about
fiveone and doesn't weigh much at all, but she's incredibly strong, probably
the strongest woman pound for pound that I've seen in the RKC even
outside of the RKC. She's just freakishly strong.
And she's not big. She's very small. Measure her arms, I guarantee you
they're way smaller than most women. They're tiny. She's muscular. She's
really muscular.
So you can get that type of body, but women don't know that that's
possible. I don't think they have enough role models. The role models they
do have are these airbrushed magazine models that really aren't real.
So yeah, it's just a matter of taking people's misconceptions, their myths,
their questions, and just from day one. You know, let me see if I can help
you get through some of your mental hurdles on what you think or feel
about Kettlebells.
Scott:
So basically, most of those misconceptions you're able to do away with
after a session or a couple of sessions.
Franz:
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And if I'm not, I don' t want to work with that client. I think belief is so
powerful. If somebody has convinced themselves that Kettlebells are bad.
You know, fine.
For you to tell me all that, if that's your belief, and that's the message you
keep giving your brain, then fine. Find something else. There's a lot of other
things out there. I have no ambition to work with somebody like that, and
that's fine.
Probably, I would say, in that case Kettlebells are not for everybody
because if you can't get out of your own way, and you don't want to learn
and listen, then too bad for you.
Scott:
Yeah. It makes a lot of sense to me. Let me ask you. Is there a secret to
success about Kettlebell training that could really make a big difference for
people?
What would be the way that could accelerate someone's training and
performance very fast, if they're really into it, if they have a lot of motivation
and desire to excel?
Franz:
I would say get around better instructors. Get around people that are better
than you, because you may think that you're getting good, and you
probably are. People that are really dedicated will improve.
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The biggest secret of success in Kettlebell training is to get around people
that have been doing it longer, that have a proven track record on getting
people better, and that they themselves have a practice.
Find an instructor, or find a group of instructors as in the RKC, that actually
do it for a living and are routinely getting people results.
That is the secret. Get around people that are better than you. Have them
help you. Learn from them, model them, copy them. Try to see what they're
doing. Success does leave clues. If you see people that are getting
amazing results, follow what they're doing. Get the techniques.
I learn stuff from all the instructors, because they've got experience that I
don't have. They're better in many ways that I could never be. Everybody
brings something unique to the training table and to the teaching table.
Attend seminars. Go to as many seminars as... I always tell people, if
you're really into this, you'll find a way to get better. You will find a way to go
to seminars. You'll find a way to buy good products or read good books, to
rub elbows with people that are where you want to be.
You can't fake that, either you're into it or you're not. If you're into it, you'll
make it happen. If it's your passion, it will be pleasure for you to do it. You'll
just want to do it.
So for people that aren't into it, that's fine. That's not your passion. But for
people that are into it, you'll just get that constant thirst and hunger for
more information, for being better, for reestablishing the basics.
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And in the RKC community, it always goes back to the basics. How are you
moving? How is your hips? How is your swing? How is your dead lift? How
is your posture? How are your shoulders doing? Are you ankles too stiff?
What's your screen on the functional movement screen? We have so many
tools within this system that is available. It's almost a crime. Like, you have
this information that's the best information in the world available to you. All
you have to do is apply it. Learn, apply, learn, apply, grow, learn. So that's
the secret.
Scott:
Again, I totally agree. I can speak from my humbling experience, like I
mentioned earlier, training for six months and then go into a workshop and
learning from Andrea DuCane and immediately I realized I was doing
everything wrong.
Here I thought I was nailing everything and I was on my way to performing
really well with Kettlebells, and just starting from ground zero. That day
basically changed my life. That's when I realized that Kettlebell training is
literally something special.
Franz:
It is, yeah.
Scott:
It's really different than anything else out there.
Franz:
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I agree. I'm kind of jealous of the people that are in the RKC system, like
some of our top instructors like Jon Engum and Mark Cheng, that have
these martial arts background because they naturally get it.
They come into the RKC. They've been through decades of disciplined
training on postures and the katas. I didn't have a background in martial
arts. My background was in sprinting, was in track and field. There's its own
discipline in that, but there's the concept of having to practice, of treating
your Kettlebells almost like a martial art or like a yoga practice.
You're there to learn. You're there to get better. You're there to peel the
layers away and just keep refining. That you get from a lot of the Eastern
traditions like tai chi and qigong and yoga and martial arts.
I think if you can get that point, where you can kind of get your ego out of
the way. Initially, I think most guys, and I am not unique to this because I've
fallen into the same trap. You just want to see how heavy you can lift,
what's your heaviest press and how much you can get up.
I don't necessarily think that's wrong. I think there should be a time and a
place where you should be able to demonstrate that you have skill and
strength at the same time, but I think it's a crime to not focus on the skill
and the practice and the refinement.
That's where I'm starting to hit. I'm 37. I'll be 38 later on this year. I'm finally
starting to get to that point where this is my martial art. I still sprint, but this
is the means in which I really enjoy getting my body to become athletic.
I can see that after eight, nine years, I'm mildly disgusted with my swing.
I'm still not happy. I think that mindset is so important.
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You obviously have it because you've experienced it. It's what I wish most
people that they could find that point, where they would say "OK, I got it.
I'm here. OK." This is a practice, this is a journey. It's not just, "OK, I'm good
with Kettlebells, what's next?"
Maybe I'll go to Tae Bo or whatever. There's benefits to a lot of movements,
but for people that are really passionate about it, I just encourage them.
Stick with it. Be patient.
Scott:
Yep.
Franz:
Take seminars. Learn. Refine. Study. Take video of yourself. Just treat it
with the respect and discipline that it really deserves. You'll reward your
body.
Scott:
You're right, and in that sense it is like martial arts, and again, I don't have a
martial arts background. I can totally respect Mark Chang and John Ingam
that you mentioned.
The advantage they have, because they've already mastered movement
through their martial art, certainly the breathing techniques and things like
that, so they're one up. As far as understanding that concept.
I think Kettlebell training is just a lifelong skill. There's a great book called
"Mastery" I think the author is George Leonard. If that's the author. He talks
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about that concept that you don't just dabble in something, you continue to
refine your technique over the years.
It's all that neuromuscular programming, and motor control elements that
you talked about earlier in the call. It's just something that takes years and
years, and lots of practice to improve on.
That's what's so attractive about Kettlebell training to me personally. I think
people that get in to it, that's what will keep them going as well. It's not like
you do it a couple of weeks, "Yeah, what's next?"
Franz:
Exactly.
Scott:
There's just so much more growth that you can do with Kettlebell training. It
sounds like Kettlebells is really the foundation of everything you do.
You did mention sprinting. I did want to actually ask you about that a little
bit. How do you implement sprinting with your clients? Is that more for the
younger athletes or the fat loss clients? Where does that fit in?
Franz:
I was joking, my identical twin brother was also an RKC, his name was
Keats Snideman, he's based out of Phoenix. We just have a huge passion
for sprinting, we have since high school. We ran in college.
We kind of secretly tell people, our goal is to secretly take all of our clients
and turn them into sprinters. They might not know that. [laughter]
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Scott:
Nice, nice.
Franz:
But that's kind of the goal, because sprinting really is, as far as your basic
body weight movement exercise, it's the maximal expression of body
weight power that you could do.
You might argue that maybe fighting is. I would argue that the speeds you
can get up to at top speed put the biggest forces through your body. That
would shift your body weight, obviously taking out loading, like dead lifting
or power lifting. It is the ultimate power training. It's the ultimate plyometric.
It's also a good litmus test for the health of your orthopedic structure. If you
can't sprint and you cannot safely transmit those forces from the ground up
into your body, in your tissues and then out back into the ground again,
you're really not a fully functioning athlete, in my opinion.
If you can't sprint, we need to find out why, and we need to get your body to
the point where you could sprint.
Obviously, somebody's got like a knee replacement or they've got like a
fused ankle or something, then we use the Kettlebells, we find some other
mode of power training. I think power training is the ultimate goal.
Should be the ultimate goal of all athletes because your ability to produce
force fast is what ultimately makes an incredible athlete. Also, learning how
to kind of steer that and redirect it into the right areas, which is skill, maybe
cutting in football, or jumping off one leg in a high jump or a triple jump.
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Sprinting for me embodies a lot of the RKC principles, because it is a hip
extension. You're cocking one leg up, let's say you flex your left knee up,
and as you flex that left knee towards your chest your opposite leg is
straight extended, and you're pushing into the ground.
There's this interplay between flexion and extension, one leg is always
pushing the other leg is always pulling. Just like we learned to walk or craw
you get this very rhythmical gait which is life. Our body just goes by this gait
cycle.
It's similar to the swing in the sense that your loading the hips, releasing
the hips. Loading the hips, and releasing the hips. The swing, for me, in
some ways, even though it's not sprinting, it reminds me of really just going
after it. That maximal expression of aggression and power and speed.
I can't really think of a sport that wouldn't benefit from having more mobile,
powerful, quick hips. Strong hips. What sport doesn't really use your hips?
Maybe chess. I don't know if that's a sport.
I try to get as many of my clients to sprint. Obviously, not all of them can,
but a lot of them can. I got clients in their 60s and 50s that are sprinting on
the track, and it's pretty hard.
Scott:
Wow, that's great.
Franz:
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It's quality work and it takes time to get there. If you just can kind of take
people step by step, get their core clear, try to get the asymmetry as
balanced as you can, get them out there.
Most people don't know they can do it, and their expectations are so low.
"Hey, listen, I can't sprint."
"Why not?"
"Because I can't sprint, I'm 50 years old."
I'm like, "So? Who cares? Have you ever tried to sprint?"
Again, it goes back to teaching, most people have to be given the
confidence, they have to be shown what to do. Everybody can sprint. Most
people can sprint. We just need to teach them how to do it. You need to
help them remove the blocks that are inhibiting them from moving their
body in that way.
Ideally, you would try to get the training program to the point where they
would be able to handle a sprint, even if it were a 20, 30 meter sprint on
grass. At least get them able to express that kind of athleticism.
It is a very empowering feeling for people. If you can get people to do that...
I mean, most people say, "OK, I like this sprinting stuff. I never thought I
would do it. I want to do this at least once a week for the rest of my life."
Scott:
That's great.
Franz:
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That's what we focus on. You know what? If you can do it, we're going to
get you to do it.
Scott:
Yeah, I can see where that would be totally empowering for people. I didn't
even really think of that being a benefit, but that's pretty amazing, actually.
Franz:
It is amazing.
Scott:
We could probably dedicate an entire call to sprinting, but I at least wanted
to make sure that I asked one question about that.
So I'm going to ask you one question, and then we'll go ahead and wrap
up. We're coming up on an hour here. So let me ask you this.
There are always new trends in health and fitness that come and go all the
time. Are Kettlebells just another fitness fad, and why or why not?
Franz:
No, definitely not. The reason they're not a fad is because they've been
around for about three or 400 years. Maybe not in this country, but... Also
they flat out work.
If you apply intelligent body mechanics behind them, you learn how to use
them properly, the majority of intelligent people that I know are not going to
stop doing something that makes them feel better, makes them lose body
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fat, makes them have more energy, makes them stronger, more powerful,
revives many people's athletic careers.
I can't think of too many intelligent people that would reject that. Oh, no it's
just a fad. I want to go back to feeling bad and horrible.
If you can find something else that gives you the same benefit then by all
means do it. But many people that go through this system and they've
played with me, you just find that this really works. This is efficient.
I don't have an hour to dedicate to yoga every day. I don't have an hour to
dedicate to running. I don't have an hour to dedicate to massage. I don't
have an hour to dedicate... With this type of training, you need 10 to 20
minutes.
There's so many reasons why it's not going to go away. I think the stuff
that's been here a while is the stuff that's going to stay.
You know, rings, gymnastics, let's do rope climbing, sprinting, running,
Kettlebells, picking up rocks and logs and objects, the stuff that's been
around forever is the stuff that is... None of this stuff is new.
Indian clubs are maybe four or 5,000 years old. They're not new. At the end
of the day, we're kind of like Dan John says, you kind of just pick up stuff
and you move it around.
Kettlebell is just another... It's a tool, but it's just a unique tool that really
gives people a platform to get fit in, what I call, a real world way.
The fitness you get is so usable. That day you're better. Like, "Oh, cool. I
just picked up my granddaughter and my back didn't blow out. Maybe this
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Kettlebell stuff works." The proof is in the pudding. It's definitely not a fad,
and it is here to stay. It will continue to grow.
I think the RKC system will continue to grow and spread its tentacles all
over the place. In fact, my wife and I have been trying to get stuff down in
South America. It looks like that's going to go.
This system will grow because it works. It's not going to grow because it's a
fad. It's going to grow because when you apply you get results and you
move better, you feel better, and you live a better life. So, you can be a
testament to that.
Scott:
Absolutely! I think that's the biggest reason why, and you pretty much just
said it. As more people discover this for themselves, it's just going to
continue to grow and grow.
And the numbers of people will just ramp up. It's really funny now because
you think that Kettlebells are really a big fitness trend, and it is. But
probably 90 percent of the population still is unaware of the benefits of
Kettlebell training.
Franz:
I would say 95 percent!
Scott:
Yeah, you're probably right. It's pretty amazing where things are going to go
in the future. Again, it's as simple as people simply discovering how
beneficial this type of training is, and it's just going to ramp up from there.
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It's not going anywhere for a long time. Like you said, it's been around for
hundreds of years. It's just kind of coming here to the United States and
gaining popularity and things like that.
This has been great, Franz. I know we're at an hour now. Man, I feel like I
could keep you here another hour asking you questions. Where can people
find out more about you? I don't think I mentioned your website when I
opened up the call.
Franz:
Our website is
. That's got our contact information,
and we do have a studio in downtown La Jolla.
We're the official Dragon Door Kettlebell dealer for San Diego. We host a
lot of HKCs. We were responsible for originally getting the RKCs here in
San Diego, which now happen every August.
We have a HKC coming up in May. We have an RKC coming up not too far
from our facility in August. We host Pavel a couple of times a year.
We've always got something cooking. We have a newsletter, if people want
to sign up for our newsletter. We give out free videos every week or so. We
have product. We have some DVDs. We've got some follow along DVDs.
We have a book, which is a lifestyle book on diet and Kettlebells, and just
kind of like a full holistic approach on how to get somebody to lose fat and
to also develop habits for life. That's called our "Revolution Kettlebell Fat
Loss Program" book, and we have some DVDs, as well.
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We also have some other projects coming up, which are kind of exciting.
They can just go to the website and find out all that information.
Scott:
Awesome. It sounds like you've got some great products and a great
business out there. Actually, I came out there last year. That's where I did
my RKC was out in San Diego last August.
Franz:
Congratulations.
Scott:
Yeah, thank you. Thank you, it was fantastic. Man, this has been great. I
learned a lot myself, and I know the listeners are going to pick up a lot of
great information from this.
Maybe we'll do this again. Maybe a part two because there's a lot of
questions I actually didn't even get to ask you. You were giving such good,
valuable feedback on your experience, which I knew you would.
Thank you so much, Franz. This has been great! This is Scott saying
goodbye. So until next time, live smart. Take care.
(Interview conducted: Spring, 2011)
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